Point-of-view preference?

[konstantya]

As will sometimes happen, my inner Hopeless Romantic works its way around the Angsty Cynic, and I've had a hankering for some romance novels.  Sex in stories is often superfluous to me, so I tend to gravitate toward YA romance simply because they can't put all that sex in, and it's more about romantic/sexual tension and plot.  (Well, I want to believe the plot would have to pick up the slack, but often times that's not the case, and I become a sad, jaded reader who goes back to her angst and cynicism.  Anyway.)  I've been browsing amazon and whatnot, reading excerpts and such, and I've realized that, on the whole, I don't think I like stories written in first-person.

I guess the problem I have with them is that they so often read like someone's diary.  And unless you've managed to make that diary awesome/funny like Are You There, God? It's Me, Margaret, or even The Princess Diaries (which I did read, years ago, yes), it comes off as very...it's like narratorial masturbation, I guess.  And when the narrator is a proxy/fantasy for the author (ahem, Twilight?), this goes, in turn, from narratorial masturbation to authorial masturbation.  Putting it in third-person limited would at least let me pretend that you have some distance from this character.  Maybe this just has to do with bad authors vs. good authors when it comes down to it.  And perhaps in first-person stories the flaws are more noticeable?  Or maybe I'm just super-picky with my romances?  (Note:  I am.  I admit it.)  Maybe it has something to do with first-person romances reminding me of my 13-14-year-old self who wrote really bad Mary-Sue first-person romances.  (I actually found some of those while cleaning last summer.  I tried reading them and went, "Wow, that's a weird, icky feeling.")

Not that I haven't enjoyed any stories/books in first-person.  The Great Gatsby and...this other one by this popular YA author...forget his name, but I think the book was called Carl?  I read it a long time ago, but it stuck with me for some reason...[/memory fail]  Anyway, those two come to mind immediately.  And I think what does it for me with those examples is that the story is not really about the narrator, even though he/she is an actual character in the story.  In The Great Gatsby, Nick is, essentially, a secondary character--he exists mostly so we can see things through his lens of sight.  And now that I think about it, the one first-person fic I wrote is much the same thing; it's more about the Turks, than Reno.  Arguably the real focus in that one is Vincent.

I think I write in third-person less because of the omnipresence, and more for the distance it allows.  My style does tend to be on the detached side.  Sort of a "here are the facts; think what you will" way of doing things.  Not that omnipresence (or the limiting of it) doesn't have its draw--indeed, many of my longer stories which will maybe one day see the light of the internet? maybe? play with that very idea--limiting the perspective to one or two characters for effect and/or story-telling purposes.  Like, you don't need first-person to have an unreliable narrator, you know?

So, maybe all that wasn't as cohesive or concise as it could have been, but I've wasted enough time on this already today.  ^^'  My question is, do you have a preference for third- or first-person point-of-view?  If so (or not), why is that?  Just what exactly about them do you prefer?  And does this preference vary depending on whether you're reading or writing?  I'm sure there are other reasons beyond my personal ones (and no doubt my personal reasons at this moment are tainted by amateur-ish romance novels), so I'm curious.

Comments

[venefica-aura.livejournal.com]

I have a particular dislike of a lot of 1st person narratives myself, the exception being stuff written by awesome people like F. Scott Fitzgerald or Virginia Woolf (which they don't do often, despite them being really good with it) because of the distance thing, like you mentioned. Some people still manage to be self-inserty with 3rd person, but it's easier to at least ignore that in that way.

I don't read romance ROMANCE, but I don't mind it in my stories, and there was this one Arthurian short story I liked with Arthur and Guinevere that was cute (truefact: I cannot stand the Lancelot/Guinevere addition that was added later and think that it's just another form of bad fanfiction...) so I wouldn't be able to help you there. XD

[konstantya.livejournal.com]

I don't read romance ROMANCE, but I don't mind it in my stories

I think that might be my problem--I tend to like more than just romance with my romance stories, even if it's something as minor as an interesting historical backdrop. So maybe I should really be looking at other genres that just happen to have romance in them. This whole "averagely-unique high school student" or "young lady making her debut into society" is YAWN.

[venefica-aura.livejournal.com]

Then I have a suggestion! Cordelia's Honor which is the start of a whole sci-fi series called the Vorkosigan Saga... now, don't worry about the sci-fi, it is more like political implications and not just space battles, and the story is written by a woman. But a main driving point in the story is the romance between Cordelia and Aral Vorkosigan; and it's really kind of awesome. Cordelia is not young, neither is Aral, and they are wicked intelligent and interesting people in their own right and I was quite taken with their story.

Most of what Robin McKinley writes has good relationships that are not THE SOLE FOCUS but they are in integral part of things. Both her renditions of Beauty and the Beast are particularly interesting there (yes, she wrote two... she kind of wins my soul for that, as that is one of my hopeless romantic things).

Oh and all of those reccs are not all about sexytimes, though if they are YA they are a strong one for other themes.

Lemme think what else... on the strange side (and depending on your reading it's not romantic at all) but there's The Left Hand of Darkness which is another sci-fi, but more about a culture that doesn't have gender in the way we see it and a human interacting in it who sort of has a thing with one of the people on the planet... VERY thinky.

I lean more sci-fi than fantasy, obvs, but good sci-fi is really just exploratory on the speculative fiction aspects.

God, trying to think of other ones that kind of appealing to the romantic in me... I admit I gravitate away from a lot of that, because I am bored if it's the sole focus (hilariously, I still WRITE things like that oh brain).

[konstantya.livejournal.com]

Ooh, awesome--thanks for the rec! And I might have read one of those renditions of Beauty and the Beast, actually... Retellings of fairytales are something I have a great interest in, and I read more than a few good ones, back in the day. I should look those back up, truly.

I've heard of The Left Hand of Darkness, but the premise doesn't do much for me, I'm afraid... Or, rather, it's something I would probably find interesting, but I feel it's far too thinky when I'm in the mood for (relatively) light romance. It's one of those that's on my list for when I want a Serious Book. XD

I'm actually more into historical than sci-fi or fantasy, really (but if there's old-school science involved, that's the best!), but it's often hard to find historical romances that have more than just period clothes and societal scandals to root them in the past. There was actually a great rec I came across a while ago, that was as much about the Napoleonic Wars as it was a romance, and I always kick myself for not writing it down because I have a huge wooden ship fetish and men in old military uniforms = yes.

I think we go about things in the opposite ways--I almost never write something where the romance is the main focus, but I feel the need to get my fix by reading it. I'd probably have more luck with fanfiction in this respect if I wasn't such a stickler for characterization and/or if my personal head-canon wasn't so strongly rooted.

And I was pretty sure you'd love the laser game, so you're very welcome. XD

[auronlu.livejournal.com]

First person is harder to write well in any circumstances, and you may well be right that it feels too masturbatory.

There was a fanfic archive that's now defunct, Freedom of Speech FF, that tended to have smutfics written in second person. Gosh, I hated those, even though they were supposed to be porn. Write to entertain me, but get your hands off my body! And I don't particularly want to imagine yours, Ms. Narrator!

I think the idea that romance gets boring pretty quickly without any other plot is valid. Some fans can't even stand the amount of romance in FFX, and want to fast forward through the "screw the laws of physics, let's have underwater nookie!" sequence. I felt the romance in that story was very well-done, but that's because it came about through the characters' shared experiences. Stuff HAPPENED to them, and they came to care for each other. There were other characters around too. There was non-relationship stuff happening.

Unless I'm looking for PWP bedtime reading, I want the second P more than the first.

[konstantya.livejournal.com]

Oh, man, don't even get me started on second-person. And second-person smut--whoa, just a little too weird for me, thanks. (If first-person is masturbatory, does that make second-person voyeuristic?) I remember back in one of my college lit. classes, the prof was talking about second-person, particularly this one full-length novel, and he said something along the lines of, "It's really good, but it sometimes throws you out of the story a bit. Like when I found out I was a short Latino woman." It's a very tricky thing to pull off, and it often seems that the shorter the piece, the more chance it has for success. One of the most memorable short stories I've ever read was a second-person piece of flash-fiction called "How To Set a House on Fire" (by...I forget the author, whoops).

Regarding FFX, I agree--I really liked the romance between Tidus and Yuna, and it had a main plot beyond that and a supporting cast that was well-developed and intriguing in their own rights. One thing that often pisses me off in romance novels is that it often seems that the hero and the heroine end up together simply because they're the hero and the heroine, because that's how things work, even though it might be painfully obvious that she gets along much better with the older brother. With FFX, I could honestly see how these two characters could be drawn to each other, and for that reason, it was very sweet and fulfilling for me.

Bottom line: Why can't romance novels be written more like video games? XD

[trekqueen.livejournal.com]

I can see your point about the 1st person narratives, it can get really annoying. I was talking about that with my friend ilistine concerning the True Blood / Sookie Stackhouse Novels - it really began to grate on my nerves in the series and I think it does venture into the authorial masturbation you mentioned. LOL

I much prefer the rhid person POV, I tend to write that way myself unless the piece I write has more of a poignant hit to it by doing it in 1st POV.

[konstantya.livejournal.com]

I actually tried reading the Sookie Stackhouse novels a good 3-4 years ago on a friend's recommendation, and I remember liking them enough, but didn't get any further than the second book, I don't think. The premise was pretty neat, but the characters didn't really grab me enough to want to continue. Sookie was okay, but I didn't ZOMG LOVE HER, and, well, yeah, as she's the main character and the narrator...

There was a short story by Charlaine Harris that took place in the same universe that I'd like to read again. About a ballroom dancer and her vampire partner. The villain was a bit too stereotypically evil/crazy for my tastes, but other than that, it was a quick, fun read.

[trekqueen.livejournal.com]

I got through all 9 books and the companion short story collection, I think I liked Sookie more in the first few books but she gradually annoyed me more as it went along. The smut gets very strong by book 9 and I am quite partial to Eric now but I'm also finding myself comparing the books and show as I do like how certain things are done in the show more so than how the book handled it. I dunno, I think I felt like it was getting too predictable in some aspects and I knew what was coming a bit too easily. Maybe it is because Sookie became more of a Mary Sue as the books kept going... Hmmmz. Book 10 is out in May so I might have to see how it goes in there in determining my further viewpoint. :D

[konstantya.livejournal.com]

That's what I remember hearing--that Sookie was becoming a Mary-Sue--so that hasn't exactly made me want to pick the series back up again. I admit I'm kind of curious about the show, but, perhaps because the books didn't really grab me, haven't made an honest effort at watching it.

I never tried reading them, but I hear that was essentially the problem with the Anita Blake series--the first six or so were good, but then it just became Mary-Sue PORNPORNPORN.

[trekqueen.livejournal.com]

haha, I've thought about getting into Anita Blake... who knows, if I get too bored and read everything in the house I may go for that as my next stint. :D

With Sookie, I think her personality definitely changed as the books went along and more of the reasoning to get the story to go a certain way rather than the character developing to meet such a dynamic shift.

Personally, I think the show is doing a better job so far on certain aspects than the books. The thing about translating the books to a show is that one cannot do just Sookie's POV - they have to do everyone in the ensemble cast, which I think leads to much more developed storylines. Though, I'm really curious to see what they pull out of their arses to make certain IMPORTANT plot points to the books still "work". So far they are doing one season = one book and stick to the general outline but as we go along this minor changes will start to add up.

[konstantya.livejournal.com]

The thing about translating the books to a show is that one cannot do just Sookie's POV - they have to do everyone in the ensemble cast, which I think leads to much more developed storylines.

That is a really great point, and actually makes me more inclined to check it out now. So thanks!

And if you ever do get into Anita Blake, good luck, and let me know how it goes. ;D

[drakonlily.livejournal.com]

I'm a huge fan of the 3rd person for that very reason. Now a lot of my beloved gothic feminist stuff (The Yellow Wallpaper) is excellent in 1st person. The problem is that most contemporary writers, in my opinion, lack the skill for the craft.

Of course I'm a pretentious lit snob XD

[konstantya.livejournal.com]

"The Yellow Wallpaper," oh!--"The Yellow Wallpaper"! I freakin' love that story and all it's feminism and light-toned creepiness.

I do think first-person is more difficult to write. Not as difficult as second, surely, but still harder than third, so I think you might be right about a lot of writers lacking the skill. And I'm glad I'm not the only pretentious lit snob. I try not to be, but I took a lot of lit classes and it just sort of happened. orz

[drakonlily.livejournal.com]

HAVE YOU READ THE BOOK OF FRANZA OH MY GOD IF YOU HAVENT GO GET IT NOW FIND IT

[konstantya.livejournal.com]

HO SHIT I HAVE NOT I'M TAKING NOTE OF IT RIGHT NOW

[drakonlily.livejournal.com]

I HOPE YOU FIND IT NOW LIKE I HOPE YOU ARE READING IT (http://books.google.com/books?id=8alJ3xpo3L8C&printsec=frontcover&dq=book+of+franza+and+requiem+for+fanny+goldmann&source=bl&ots=TxCujNL3YP&sig=K5Im-GZ0rThOgjgt9wVS7f1FW7Y&hl=en&ei=qfSeS-iKL8GC8gaHoc3jCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CA4Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=&f=false)

I mean I can ship it to you! but I want it back. Cause this book makes me BAWL. Oh so good. It's like... better than Virginia Woolfe (Who's afraid of Virginia Woolfe too)

[konstantya.livejournal.com]

BOOKMARKED FOR GREAT JUSTICE

I'll pass on the shipping offer (for now)--my library coop is like three dozen sorts of awesome, so I think I should be able to track it down, but thank you!